Unveiling the Secrets to Successful Writing with Mary Lynn Cloghesy

In this special episode of The Patrick Bass Show, we shine the spotlight on Mary Lynn Cloghesy, a distinguished author and the visionary founder of the Leadership Literary Lab. With over 20 years of experience working with experts across various fields, Mary Lynn has developed a groundbreaking program designed to help new authors overcome common pitfalls and empower them to complete their books.

Join Patrick Bass as he delves into Mary Lynn's unique approach to mentoring writers, blending her expertise in both fiction and nonfiction to create a supportive and effective environment. Discover how the Leadership Literary Lab's four-phase program—preparation, pre-writing, production, and publishing—guides authors from initial idea to published work, ensuring both quality and accessibility.

Mary Lynn's dedication to helping writers find their authentic voice and create impactful, transformative stories is at the heart of this engaging conversation. Learn about the importance of preparation, the differences between fiction and nonfiction writing, and the powerful role of mentorship in the creative process.

Whether you're an aspiring writer or simply interested in the world of literary creation, this episode offers invaluable insights and inspiration. Tune in to hear more about Mary Lynn's journey, her innovative methods, and the success stories of the authors she's mentored.

Subscribe, follow, and join the community on Facebook and YouTube at RealPatrickBass. For more information, guest line-ups, and resources, visit pwbass.com.

About The Patrick Bass Show: The Patrick Bass Show is a dynamic podcast that breaks the mold of traditional talk shows. Broadcasting globally on the Vanguard Radio Network, Patrick delivers raw, unfiltered commentary on the issues that matter. Tune in Monday through Friday from 5 PM to 6 PM Central, or catch the episodes the next day on major podcast networks. For more information, visit pwbass.com.

Transcript

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This is a worldwide broadcast brought to you by Podcast Networks Everywhere courtesy of the World Wide Web. This show isn't for liberals and it's not your daddy's conservative talk show. So sit down, strap in and hang on. It's the Patrick Bass Show on the Vanguard Radio Network. And now here's your host, Patrick Bass. Hey, welcome everybody to the Patrick Bass show on the Vanguard Radio Network. My name's Patrick Bass, as you might have guessed. I to take a couple of minutes to let everybody know about some really exciting developments that are happening at the show. First, we're absolutely thrilled to announce that we're very close, very, very close to being picked up by a major distribution network. I think this is going to be a really exciting development for our listeners because it's going to substantially increase our listener base and provide us with access to resources. that are really going to propel the show to the next level of production quality. 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We've got a real quick break coming up and afterwards we're going to meet Mary Lynn Clogsy, a distinguished author who aims to help other writers overcome common pitfalls and empowers them to complete their books. It's all right here on the Patrick Bass Show. We're just getting started. More real and raw takes that the rest of the media are scared to admit. Coming up next on the Patrick Bass Show. Are you on a journey of professional and personal transformation? We all are. Or we should be. Patrick Bass, he's the author of Burn Your Ships, How to Conquer Doubt and Live Without Limits. The book dives deep into understanding the roots of your fears and to learn not just how to face but how to conquer them permanently. You'll learn how to embrace commitment and dismantle the option of failure. You'll get practical advice backed by psychological research, strategic planning tools, and inspiring success stories from people who've truly embodied the burn your ships philosophy in their own lives. Burn your ships, how to conquer doubt and live without limits, available at pwbass .com or on Amazon. You took the first step and quit smoking, but even former smokers may still be at risk for lung cancer. That's why SaveByTheScan .org wants you to know about a new low -dose CT scan that can detect lung cancer early. It takes only 60 seconds and could save your life. You took the first step, now take the next. Visit SaveByTheScan .org for a simple quiz to see if you're eligible and talk to your doctor about screening. SaveByTheScan .org is brought to you by the American Lung Association's Lung Force Initiative and the Ad Council. In your face, unfiltered and raw. We're back to it on the Patrick Bass Show. Welcome back to the program. Patrick Bass here on the Vanguard Radio Network. Today's guest is Mary Ann Clogsy, a distinguished author and the visionary founder of the Leadership Literary Lab. She has over 20 years of experience working with experts in various fields, and Mary Lynn has developed a groundbreaking program that fast tracks the writing and publication of exceptional nonfiction books. She's known as the Wild Rose Writer from Calgary, Alberta, holds two graduate degrees in creative and critical writing, and blends her expertise in both fiction and nonfiction. She's dedicated to helping new authors overcome common roadblocks that overwhelm, induce procrastination, uncertainty, and she helps empowers them to complete their books and make a significant impact on their fields. Please welcome Mary Lynn Clogsy. How are you doing? I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me on the show today. You're very, very welcome. We're so excited to have you. There's a lot of, we were talking before the show, there's just a lot of budding writers out there. And, and, and, and sometimes I think the biggest problem is they just kind of get writers blocked. They procrastinate, you know, and it takes them forever to finish their first book. If they ever finish it, you've kind of cracked the code on this, haven't I'm cracking the code. would say that I'm working through it. I think that there's been a lot of learning that's happened in the past couple of years. I've been developing this program specifically to meet this niche for nonfiction authors because I think the needs for fiction writers and nonfiction authors are very different. And the target audience that I have, which are experts in their fields, they have a lot of knowledge that I think is really important to communicate to a younger generation and to their peers. but they also have limited time and competing priorities. So this program tries to hit that sweet spot between creating the quality and the accessibility and yet making it manageable for them within the context of their lives. And this is the leadership literary lab that we're talking about Yeah, the Leadership Literary Lab, it's called the L3 program and it's a four -phase program. Would you like me to describe a little bit about that? Right. So the four phases are preparation, pre -writing, production and publishing. I think the most important of the phases is preparation because that's the one that's very often overlooked and it's the reason that a lot of writers start a project but they don't finish It would be akin to sort of throwing on a pair of runners and trying to do a marathon your first time out without really doing any training runs or understanding sort of the dynamics and the physical requirements and the terrain and where you're going and how to get there. So my literary lab provides that knowledge and support that a new author would need to be successful in not only writing their book but enjoying the process as I, you know, and here's the thing. I think a lot of would -be writers start out with this great idea. And, or somebody tells them, wow, you ought to write a book on that, you know? And so they start writing and perhaps they don't do enough prep work or something, but where is the main gotcha in all of this? I'm guessing it's laying the foundation, but I don't Yeah, laying the foundation is a really big piece because that involves several things. That involves more than an outline. Like there's a lot of programs out there that start with, let's write your outline and take it from there. What I start with is what do you want to be known for? If you're going to be a thought leader in your field, what is it that you can see yourself talking about over the long term? How do you want to leave your legacy? What is that legacy going to be? Because if you can really hone in on what you're passionate about and what makes you unique and what's driven you to your success in your career, then you'll have sort of the gumption and the fortitude to finish the project, right? So that's the first part is understanding who you are, who are you and what are you about? Secondly, you do need a step -by -step process and that's where the preparation comes in because I kind of delay some of what a lot of programs and courses would put up front because I get writers to practice. We think about systems, we think about accountability, we think about winning mindset, we think about how to track those systems so that you can see yourself progressing. I also work on setting expectations because when a lot of new writers come to their projects not having done a large manuscript, they often underestimate the time involved in completing it. So I do pacing charts and word counts and I look at genres depending on which genre they're writing in to give them expectations as to Well, if you want a long lead magnet, and that's different from a nonfiction book, you can write 150 pages or less, and that might serve your needs if you're a coach or speaker. But if you really want to leave a piece that's going to affect and transform your reader, you're going to need to sort of pick up your game, right? And so it's people get to decide where they sit in that spectrum. And then from there, we'll work out the technical side of what is your message and what are the best ways to communicate One of the things that I noticed when I wrote my own book, particularly the first one, which was a huge learning experience for me, and I mentioned I think I'm gonna have to go back and do a revision of it because after doing the second one, I realized the mistakes I made, and probably in the second one, I made mistakes that I'll figure out in the third one, I don't know. But one of the things I realized is, and maybe this was just me, as I'm writing, and I've got this outline that I'm roughly following, I kind of get bogged down in the details of trying to explain too much in a paragraph or a chapter or a section. And from there, it just kind of unravels for me and I almost become paralyzed and I don't know what to do. Is this a common occurrence? Yeah, it's a common occurrence because there's so much, it's almost the curse of knowledge, right? Where there's so much that you have to share and so much that you know and so much that you've experienced that to find your way through it and to communicate that with somebody who starts from, you know, a completely fresh slate, that's the difficulty in translating the message and the expertise that's in your mind onto the page. So one of the things that I do that's different is that I start with what's called themes, tenets and timelines. And the theme is basically the underlying message that you're going to communicate to your reader that will affect them for the better. If that is the only thing they took away from your book, you would be satisfied that your time and theirs would be well spent. And from there, once you have a foundation, have to dig into your, both your successes and your failures. You have to dig into all of the things you know and all of the questions that you have. So we'll kind of brainstorm around these things and then tenets come out of that. This sounds a bit unusual, but I think about it in terms of the three dimension of the house. So your theme is your foundation, right? The tenants or the principles that you talk about are your rooms. And the timeline is how you flow through those rooms. Now, if you establish those things before you do your outline, and your outline can evolve from that, then you won't get stuck in, well, I think I have this piece of information, you have a way to move through that document and move through that thought process. You have an anchor to start with and you have a process to go through. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense and when you lay it out like that, the analogy back to architecture, a house, you know, this is our foundation, these are our rooms, this is the flow as you walk through the building and so forth. It really creates a very vivid picture of what it is you're doing. When clients work with you, Mary Lynn, you've kind of laid the basic foundation, you know, is it... Is it an iterative process or, you know, is it more of classroom based? How does it, how do you situate the training program that you You know, one of the things that's unique about the Literary Lab is that I'm not online. I personally mentor all of my authors because I think that there is efficacy to doing, learning some skills when it comes to the craft. And you can have templates when it comes to outlines and you can have templates when it comes to systems and structure, but everybody is different. And these authors being the experts in their fields, they need hands -on. And if you think about it, even the greats, even the greats of literature, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, they always had a mentor to work with. It's a really important part of the process. And that's one of the things that I think is, I'd like to communicate very clearly to the audience for anybody out there that's looking at writing a book, find somebody to help you because you can't edit your own work. You can't ghost write your own work. You need your two heads are better than one person. And that's one of the things that I really struggled with actually at first, because when I had graduated, from my master's degree a couple of years ago, I had entered a business program and it's a fantastic business program. But I realized that it was all online and I really struggled because I thought, how can I deliver the kind of quality advice that I could offer my clients unless I'm doing it personally? And I think I kind of let that go. I let the whole online model go because it just wasn't working for the outcome that I was hoping for. I mean, first and foremost, I love great stories. And I love to empower people with great visions. And thought leaders are really important, especially for the younger generation. We need to stand up and be heard and teach what we know and help the younger generation see through some of the confusion that's in the world today. And if I can do my small part by helping a few authors get there, that's my passion. I like that you were bold enough to recognize that online delivery isn't always the best approach. One of the things that I do in my quote day job is I'm a professor at university and I teach online and you know one of the things that I've realized is for a lot of programs that that delivery method works really well but there are some cases where there's just nothing quite like that you know, synchronous one -on -one delivery method that you're just not going to get in an asynchronous or, you know, online program. And I'm sure my university wouldn't want to hear me say that, but it is the truth, you know. And so I really appreciate the approach that you're taking and I'm sure your clients do too. You know, as we're writing and as we're creating, I'll never forget I had a teacher who was very instrumental in my life early, early on when I was still in high school. told me one thing that was pivotal. She said a writer writes and for a long time I didn't know what that meant. And as I got older it became apparent to me that you know I don't have to be actively involved in quote writing a book to write or to be a writer. It's just something that is a natural offshoot of my personality. I'm writing all the time about something it seems like. You mentioned also the difference between fiction and nonfiction and I can imagine there's a a vast difference. Let's talk about that for a little Sure. So the fiction writer is in the business of creating a world. And the interesting thing between fiction and nonfiction is there's a lot of micro genres and ways in which these worlds are quite divided and different. Nonfiction obviously is based in truth. However, there's always a creative element to nonfiction in the same way fiction is based in non-truth, but you're diving into all of these core concepts that make you who you are, that drive you to want to create a world. I am a fiction writer, so that's one of the things that I think is unique about what I bring to it is story is where they both meet, right? It's the human story in one form or another, truth -based or fantasy -based. There's an interplay between the two. And for me, one of the things that I love to do with my clients is to say, okay, let's say you have a structure or a teaching framework or something that you want to communicate. We need to figure out the rhetorical strategies or the methods to do that. And I always bring in story. So whereas fiction, there's different ways in which you create a manuscript. So it relies more on internal supports such as plot and character development and And nonfiction relies more on external supports as opposed to reports, pardon me, research and anecdotal information and lived experience. But they're not fundamentally different. You are telling a story, you are communicating to a reader, and you're hoping they're transformed in some way for the better by what you've created. So there's cross platforms between the two and there's way I work with both. When you're working with authors and prospective authors, and they've gotten to the point where, well, let me ask you this, because I don't want to put the cart before the horse, so to speak. What kind of method do you recommend for someone who wants to publish? They need to have a manuscript completed or an outline? How do they approach that? and where does self -publishing fall into all of that from your vantage Okay, so that's a big question. So I'll give you a quick answer and then we can delve into it more later. So traditional publishing is not for everyone. And in fact, there are some real drawbacks to traditional publishing. Self -publishing is a great way to get your message into the world quickly and to a broad audience where you A, control the narrative, B, promote the narrative, and C, decide how you want to show up in that space, right? Publishing is all about sales. And I'm a fan of traditional publishing. They have massive distribution networks that would be almost impossible for a self-published author to mimic or to access. There's also barriers in terms of awards. So traditional publishing is A, about prestige and B, about distribution. So the way that I ask authors to think about it is what are your priorities when you're publishing a book? If you don't care about the financial aspect, then... traditional publishing might be a route for you because the publishing contracts are always in the favor of the publisher. So it's really for career authors who want to write more than one book, who are building an audience over time, who can actually work side by side with their agent and their publisher to create this kind of, let me see, economic juggernaut, if you will. So think about the series of books. It's probably not the first book that actually was beneficial to the author financially, if you will. or even the publisher, but it might be the third or fourth book, right? So if you are somebody that wants to write a book, there's a passion in your heart for this subject, and that is your one -off book, and that will be your legacy, then self-publishing is a much better option. The one way in which these two worlds have converged is that the authors are now responsible for their promotion, no matter whether you're publishing with a traditional imprint or a self -publishing or even a hybrid imprint, you're going to have to do the promotion. It's really about what your priorities are as an author. And that can be time, it can be money, it can be distribution, it can be a lot of things. So we just discuss it and then I'll give you a recommendation as to where that needs to go or where I think it should go. Yeah, isn't that the truth? Because you'll end up with cases of books that you need to go sell. it's really, my experience has been the real work begins once the book is available on the marketplace. That's when the real work begins. Exactly, exactly. And I actually talk about that with my clients or future clients right from the beginning. Like literally, the big picture is something we flesh out first before we even discuss the content of the manuscript. Because the big picture has to align with what that person wants overall. Yeah, and because now, you know, the book is published and may be available on Amazon, other places, but who knows about it because there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of books out there that and and you might have a really great book, but if nobody ever knows about it, they can't they're not going to buy it. And and so there you go. Mary Lynn, we got to take a quick break and we'll be right back and we'll we'll pick this up right after this break. Sounds Don't forget to hit our website at www .pwbass .com. More of the Patrick Bass Show coming up. I just want to say that friendship is about heart. Heart and brain. Who's with me? Good thing is, he knows when he's buzzed. And my brain is saying, when it's time to go home, somebody call me a ride. Love that guy. Me too. Know your buzzed warning signs? Call for a ride when it's time to go home. Buzz driving is drunk driving. A message from NHTSA and the Ad Council. Welcome back to the program. If you're a would be author or maybe you've recently published a book, today's show is going to be particularly important to you. I'm speaking to Mary Lynn Clogsy, who's got a literary learning lab and is basically in the business of helping and empowering authors write their book and distribute it and really make it successful. We were chatting right before the break and I had mentioned it seems like the hard work begins once book is published and is available on the marketplace. What kind of tips do you offer for folks who are in that very position? Well, you know, it's interesting because I was working on a little newsletter item and one of the things that I had put in there and I revisited today was about how you feel about promotion. Because if authors can approach this project or even the aspect, this aspect of the project with working knowledge of where their standing point is in terms of do you like to market? Does this challenge entice you or do you have an aversion to the idea of selling your expertise? know, self -awareness is a huge part of this process because once you identify your starting point, you can then figure out how to move forward. So for authors that are gung -ho, they can start creating an author's platform right away. The methodologies in terms of how you promote your book and different ideas around that have been shifting. And so we can talk a little bit about that. but to back it up for a moment, for the authors that are not gung -ho, and a lot of authors aren't, these can be internal, like very introverted folks, right? Just to work with your mindset right from the beginning, right from the beginning, knowing that you will be your best advocate, work with your mindset, start to see your potential audience as friends and people that will benefit from knowing you and hearing from you and that you're not in the solo, you have some support. And so taking those smaller steps, maybe you're not ready for an author's platform, but maybe what you're ready to do is share your story with a friend who then could then give you the encouragement that you could then take the next step, right? So an author's journey is transformative, just even writing the book, let alone marketing it. And so understanding who you are and how you want to approach the market is an important first You know, one of the things that I did, and I'm still not sure if this was the right approach, but it's done. I have given away many more copies of my books than I have sold, you know, in the hundreds. Just trying to get, you know, some recognition, or not even recognition, just trying to get somebody to read it. And I guess that's the way it's done. I don't know, I mean, I'm only now starting to realize a few organic sales, which I'm very, very thankful for everybody taking the time to read something I've written I'm very thankful for but is that a valid approach? A lot of authors do that. A lot of authors do it. And I have no, I am not in any way a naysayer around that. I would like authors to get paid for their work. I think that would be the better part of the two parts that we're talking about here. However, sometimes you do have to offer that expertise free of charge so that you can begin to spread the word, right? As you said, this is a crowded marketplace. And I don't think it's any one thing that's going to put you over the line. So if you were, for example, giving away books, but you weren't doing a podcast, or if you were giving away books, but you weren't willing to set up an author's platform or sort of become a public figure in that sense, then it might not make sense, right? So it really depends on the big picture. And again, we're circling back to what do you want? Or do you want to become a speaker or a coach? Do you want to bring some private clients into your business? Are you doing this to leave a legacy? Right? So I have an author, for example, who wrote a book, spent a year writing a memoir with me on her father, and she wrote that specifically for her children. And even though that was never for commercial release, the experience of honouring her father and leaving a legacy for her children was so compelling that that is the reason she did it. So she may opt to give her book away, she was talking about it. Whereas I have another author who wrote, a book called Making It or Not, and that's the journey told by real soccer players in Australia. So she interviewed some A -league players because her sons and her family were involved in professional football or soccer as it's called here for generations, and she realized that these kids weren't being prepared for what that journey takes if they do want to go pro. She also realized there was a need in the market for her to be able to spread that message about, well, making it might mean going pro. It might mean simply staying at your community level and enjoying that with your friends. Maybe that's your version of your best soccer career, right? And so with her book, we actually ended up writing a proposal, a sponsorship proposal to Football Australia, and we piqued their interest. she's since been picked up by a traditional publishing imprint, which is an unheard of occurrence for a first debut author. So there's no one way to approach this. There's all kinds of different ways in which you can work with this. And to wrap that up, one of the things I do for my authors is I provide a sensitivity analysis saying if you sell X many books at this cost, then this is your royalty rate, then this will be your return. And you can play with those numbers, right? So there's a sensitivity analysis around how that looks. I also do a bit of a, as part of that, a payout for my costs. I'm like, well, at this rate and at this level of copies and off you go, then this is when you start to profit. But a lot of the authors that I work with, mean, profitability is one thing, but it's really having their legacy in their own words or having that thought leadership in the market. They're willing to take a long -term view of it, right? So they don't need the immediate payout because the payout is in knowing people are reading their books. Yeah, so I guess the point is there's more than one way to achieve success in writing. Absolutely. And by the way, hats off to the writer who's just writing. You mentioned got an A1 publishing contract. Good for them. That is really phenomenal. How has, excuse me, how has AI changed writing since the advent of like chat, GPT and these other things? What's the impact that you see You know, it's been really interesting because there was this writer's strike. If you remember back in California, I think it started with the writers and then it went on to the audiovisual people. So AI has been, it is a very powerful tool and I think it's caused a lot of panic in the creative communities. I believe that AI is a powerful tool in the hands of creatives. It will never replace creatives. And I'd like to repeat that because I think this is really important for me for future authors to know you will never get thought leadership. from an AI because it's derivative, it recycles what already exists in the public space in terms of knowledge, history, research. It can never lead. It can never push us further. And that's why I was so passionate about starting Leadership Literary Lab because I believe that we really need our thought leaders to understand that they're not gonna be replaced by AI and their voices need to be heard. Yeah, and you know, going back to my work as a professor, you know, occasionally we have students turn something in that is blatantly written by Chad GPT. And I got to tell you, it's not a particularly good writer. No, there's no voice. And this is one of the things that I like to do when I mentor my writers. I had spoken about that particular client of mine that had written a memoir. know, she was really struggling for the first six months. And she was getting content on the page and everything was starting to kind of come together. But her authentic voice, the way she communicated with that strength of conviction and yet that gentle love that she had for her father, that took six months to develop. And I went, when she provided me with this piece of writing, like, now we've arrived. Now we're going to stop and go back and integrate. And so there's a process when it comes to finding your voice. And it's very obvious. I also have a friend who teaches at the college and I was asking her about this and I said, what do you do when you know it's written by A? And she goes, the first thing I say to my students, and she's an English professor, is If you want to hack the system and you want your entire education to be based on AI written materials, you might get away with it. But where does that leave you at the end of the day? A thousands of dollars worth of nothing. So it's really up to you and your personal integrity. But to me and you as a writer and as authors, it's within the first paragraph I can tell if it's been written by AI. It's just the subtleties of language. It doesn't write like a human would write. No, and as you said, it's iterative, or it's not creating something organic. It's not new. It's basically regenerative. And it may, who knows? There may come a time in the evolution of technology where it is able to do that, but guys, we're not there yet. So to all my students who are listening to this, stop doing that because I know you're doing it when it happens. OK, professor hat off. Back to podcast host. I've got it in the show notes here that, and tell me if this is right or wrong, are you writing two fiction books simultaneously? How do you, okay, and how are you, I mean, obviously you're compartmentalizing it in your mind, but how do you keep it straight? Obviously you must have some system. You know, it's funny, it's one of these classic examples of do as I say and not as I do, because I'm what's called a pantser rather than a plotter, and I'll explain those terms. So a pantser is somebody who flies by the seat of their pants and a plotter is somebody who plots out a larger piece. when I first, of those two novels, the first one I started a few years ago, and I had run into some real problems with timelines on the plot. So then I started to plot things out versus just writing what came to mind. And so I figured out a process where I internally track through what the storylines are, but the way it actually goes down on the page, I don't think about it ahead of time. I go through at the end and I start to kind of backtrack through it and just clean things up. But it's just my way of writing. I have tried to work with outlines and I have tried to work with different structural supports. And I find that I listen to the voices in my head and I think I know enough about structure that it kind of inherently shows up in my books. So as I said, don't listen to my advice when it comes to fiction because I just write it differently than I teach it. understood and you know, as you're clearly a master so that's within your rights. So when you're writing fiction, I'm curious because I've never been successful in writing fiction. I haven't really given it an honest try for that matter. But nevertheless, you have these characters in your head when you're writing as that character. I mean, are you imagining that you are that character in that moment? How do you literally, how do you actually So there was a teacher named John Gardner and when I did my master's degree, had came across this concept that he actually coined called the fictive dream. And it's all about how the reader immerses themselves in the story and lives inside the fictive dream. And so that is you're experiencing it as if it were really happening right now in your mind. So imagine holding a book in front of you, not a Kindle, but like pages and you're flipping pages. You're not cognizant of that action of holding the book and flipping pages because your mind is immersed in the story and you're living that story as you're reading. That's how I write. I live the story as I write. So whatever character's voice comes through and whatever plot turn comes through, the characters drive the action for sure. I have a vague idea of where it's going, but honestly, in the last book, I just finished a book. In the last book I wrote, It happened to be that I had no clue where the ending was and I thought I was going to end the book at about 70 ,000 words and it ended up ending at about 92 ,000 words. And so, you know, I'm going back and editing that right now. But I'm very, very pleased because if I had tried to control that as I was sort of finishing it up, I don't think it would have been as good and I don't think it would have come together the way it did. And I'm really pleased and surprised at how it resolved itself. You said something during that response that made me want to ask you this question. How do you feel about e -books? For me, I'll withhold my opinion until I hear yours, but if you had a chance between an e-book and a physical book, which would you choose? no question, a physical book, without question. I've actually studied this. So there's a phenomenon called biliterate brain and the researchers are studying it right now. And this is particularly affecting children. And so when children are learning to read, when they learn to read on electronic devices, they learn to scan vast volumes of information very quickly, but they don't immerse themselves in the story the way they would if they were holding a physical book in their hand. So the pacing is different, the way that they're taking in information is different, and their ability to empathize with the characters is different. And so I think what the researchers are showing is that children need to learn to do both. They need to learn to plug in when they're learning through school and in all of the different ways they need to take in these large volumes of information because they sort through it very quickly, right? They've got very quick minds and they learn very quickly in most cases. for the average reader. But there's nothing like settling into an actual book where everything else ceases to exist except for the story that's in your hands. And then again, it's about the fictive dream. You want to immerse yourself in the story and live in that story. And there's a different type of rest and relaxation. And also, I would say the way in which you ingest the information is different. The depth in which you live that story and ingest that information and retain it is different. I agree. for me, I've read plenty of e -books. But there's nothing quite like holding that book in your hands, feeling the pages. There's a smell to it that really you can't duplicate. It's the same way for me with audio. I still prefer vinyl records and hearing that pop and hiss. Maybe I'm just old school. But well, when I'm reading, When I'm reading an e -book on my iPad or something like that, it's great if I'm needing something to reference because I can do a keyword search or something like that. But I know I've got email on there, I've got Facebook, and I'm quickly just changing screens. But when I'm sitting there holding that book and reading, man, I am wrapped up in that moment. And I can really, just as I'm reading it, I'm almost not even focusing on the words anymore in my mind. I'm literally in that moment, in that place. feeling what those characters are feeling and I just don't experience that when I'm reading an e -book so there's a time and place for everything but you I still have a huge library of old physical books and sometimes there's just something about picking those up and holding them I agree with you. I hope not. four boys that are all 19 to 30. you know, every Christmas, as strange as it sounds, I give them a physical book, because I know that even if they're not attracted to it right now, they do hold on to them. They collect them. And I'm hoping at some point when they're ready and some of them do. And, you know, my youngest said to me recently goes, Mom, you know, I've started reading again. And in the summer when he's not in school, he reads, right? Because there's so much that he has to do online otherwise. And he always chooses know, paper and pen, you know, to write and those analog books, those physical books that you can hold in your hand. And as you said, it's very hard when you're on an e -reader or any type of electronic device to tune out of all of the other distractions that are there. Yeah, well, I think we're on the same page there. you you train a lot of, obviously, you train a lot of nonfiction fiction writers. Do you think there's something to be learned, a fiction writer can learn from a nonfiction and vice versa? You know, they each can benefit. Let's talk about that. What are some of those points that they could pick up from one another? Well, I think if I were to say what a non -fiction writer can learn from a fiction writer, it's the power of story, right? Humans relate to humans, they don't relate to principles. So if you would like your reader to buy in and ultimately be transformed by your arguments or your structure or your new way of doing things or your personal story, you have to connect to the person in there. so learn to work with character and story and understand pacing And even plot, even look at how does your book unfold? What are the changes that you're going through as the author and that you're inviting your reader to share with you as you're writing this book? And then in terms of nonfiction, fiction writers, I think, make the mistake of somehow forgetting that they need to be believable in certain circumstances. I'm all for a great sci -fi or fantasy or a book that sort of pushes the norm. I that's one of the things that I write is I write some paranormal because I really enjoy writing dream sequences that aren't subject to reality. But ultimately, your reader will exist in what I'm going to call a referential timeframe. So that is they are in a geographic place. There's a political climate around them. There is a cultural climate in which they are operating. So keeping in your reader's perspective and understanding that your book has to be believable enough to follow what would be an understandable trajectory, I think that's really important for readers. Yeah, I definitely want to talk to you about some of this paranormal stuff, I was also thinking about, before we dive into that, maybe there's a third genre where it's like, Mendino, he wrote a Greatest Salesman in the World where he was kind of telling this fictional story, but then he had this non -fictional theme that he was delivering. And to me, that's always been fascinating. I love his writing, but there's a lot of cool books like that. your paranormal writing or your writing about paranormal events, does any of that draw from just an interest in it or where does that come from? You know, when I was in grad school, everything was about literary fiction, right? And my first book that I had started writing was more literary. It was more serious. was more, and it's not more human. It's just a different approach to the human story. And then a friend of mine said, she said, you you don't look like you're really enjoying it. And I thought, you know, you're right. I'm really not. So am I going to give myself permission to write what I love? And what I love is that ineffable part of us that makes us human. So it's the instincts, it's the depth of love and ability to show up for each other when we're challenged beyond any means that we can see imaginable. And so that's one of the things that I write about in my book. So my latest book, if I were to say it had a theme, even though it's paranormal, it's that secret's destroyed and that we all have this intuition and this connection to the truth. And if you want to explore that, you need to step outside yourself and work with others that may or may not be somebody that you would innately connect with, right? We need to see the best in each other and raise each other up. So, and paranormal often has a dark spin. And even though there's some dark circumstances, I always bring this light spin to it because I want to bring hope and I want to create this sense that, you you're never really alone and that... know, is redemption is possible in all circumstances. And even when the most dire things occur, there can be positive outcomes that come from that. So that's where my heart is at. That's why I write Paranormal, because it just gives me a bigger field to run in, if you will. Sure, and so are there any experiences that you've had personally, anything that you'd care to share or talk You know, it was funny, when my mom passed away, she passed away about 25 years ago. And it's a funny story because my mom was a choir director in the Catholic Church for many years. So even though she was a very quiet and gentle woman, she had an impact and it was generally through her music. So I remember walking into the funeral and one of the pastoral care ladies came to me and she said, you you wouldn't believe what happened. And I said, tell me what happened. And she goes, you know, I was trying to hang this tapestry on the cross. front of the church and I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it and I said, come on Mary, because my mom used to help her with this, right? She goes, come on Mary, help me with this. And somehow her hand just flipped and it hit that tapestry and it laid out perfectly across the cross. And I thought, wow, that was kind of cool. So it's little moments like that where you could say that's happenstance or you could say, you know, maybe my mom kind of gave her a hand there, you know. So I like to embrace the mystery and that was a little moment where that might have shown through. Yeah, I'm fascinated by those kinds of stories. I'm a big believer in paranormal events. And again, you know, that doesn't always mean that it's scary or spooky or dark. There's a lot of I mean, I believe we're spiritual beings. We were made out of energy. And, you know, if you have any physics training, you know that energy doesn't stop existing. We just take a different form. So I think it's totally within the realm of possibility. Indeed. I have experienced it, let us say, just many times, but maybe that's a different show. Let's talk about how can people find you and find your service. And I know that you've got some kind of listener perk that you want to share with us as For sure. So you can find me through the leadershipliterarylab .com, leadershipliterarylab .com, on any one of the pages in my website, you could say book a call. And if you hit that button, there are two options. You can either book the call through Calendly, and it's a purple button on that page, or you can send me an email and we can chat, right? I'm very open to just learning about people and understanding what their stories are and the kind of books that they have in mind. I do have, and I know this is a sales ploy, so I'm putting it out there, this is not a sales ploy for me. I do have limited time because I'm a novelist and I'm going to be releasing my debut sometime in the next little while. So I have been writing two novels, they've been going back and forth with agents. I've got, I think, four agents sitting on this new one. So having said that, I do want to continue with my business and take some time to continue to work with authors and mentor them. So I have spaces for two people, honestly, this fall, and I take two books every six months. That's kind of where it's at. I just finished a couple projects and that's the only reason I have space. But that's how they can reach me, theleadershipliterarylab .com. Most of my social media is personal. I am on LinkedIn. If you want to look for me under my name, MaryLynnClogasee .com. I'm also known as the Wild Rose Writer, but again, I'm busy writing with the, and I've created the platform, but until the debut is ready to release, I've made it a lower priority. Well, you heard it. If you have any interest in getting Mary Lynn's help, you better move quickly. She's only got two spots available because she's a working writer and has other things, other irons in the fire, so to speak. Mary Lynn, that being said, when you're not writing or helping other writers, what do you love to I hike, I travel, I have four boys who are all adults now and I have a gorgeous little grandson who's 18 months. So I enjoy being a grandma and I'm also somebody that, you know, I do a lot, I spend a lot of time in the mountains. love skiing in the winter, hiking in the summer, so very physically active and, you know, just living a healthy lifestyle. You know, you're balancing all that sitting at the desk, right? Yeah, but I mean, literally it sounds like you've kind of got it all together finally. I'm sure that was a journey, right? absolutely, absolutely. mean, I have a very conflicted past in some ways. I have been divorced and there's been high conflict in the past, not of my own making, of which I was drawn in. And so there's a lot of learning that's come through that. And that's actually when I started writing was when I started recovering from some of the circumstances that I had found myself in. And so that originally started with some poetry, which I just write for myself. some diaries and some journal entries. And then when I started writing the fiction, I thought, there's a bit of a veil of anonymity here, but it also gives me an ability to stretch beyond my own experiences and put myself in other people's skin and to create these scenarios that I think are really rich learning experiences for both me as a writer and the reader as they're reading them, if I've done my job well. Writing can be very therapeutic and one of the things that fascinate me is when I look at like a blank sheet of paper or probably more accurately a blank page on Microsoft Word or something like that, I literally sit there and I think I can create whatever I want with some words. I can create any world, any situation, and I can put it in any context I want and literally blows my mind. Same way when, know, because I try to do some oil painting, I'm probably not as good as I wish I was, but same way there, you know, this is one dimensional thing and I can create these three dimensional images and stuff and the whole process to me is just fascinating. I'm wondering, probably other writers probably feel the same way. But the therapeutic value sometimes of writing is just better than any, you know. any mental health counselor or anything like Well, again, I'll refer back to this one client whose memoir has been on my mind today because I think there was a lot of processing that she needed to do and this was 10 years after the fact, right? Because in this story, there was a medical malpractice suit that caused her father to die. And so it's with that time and that space and that ability to get it out of yourself and onto the page. and to own that story and to leave that story in your own words and describe that story in your own words, I saw a shift in this individual where it wasn't just a joy at finishing the manuscript, but it was a joy at being released from something that I think had been festering inside her for quite a while. And an honouring of her father too, and that was really important to her. So... Again, the writing process can be transformative. In fact, I'm going to just stand on that soapbox and say, yep, it's always transformative. And that's why writers want to write. If you have that spark, if you feel like you're called in any way to write, I would suggest you pick up a pen and it doesn't matter what it looks like or what it sounds like or what you're going to do at the beginning. Because as we all know, great drafts start from really bad first Just start the process and it will inform you of your next steps as you go. It has its own momentum. So my high school English teacher was right after all, a writer writes. A writer writes. That's what they do. Mrs. Burge, don't know if you're listening, but you were right. Mary Lynn, thank you so much for being a part of the show. We've got just a few minutes left and I want to make sure that you have those available to share anything that you'd like, any closing comments or thoughts or anything that we weren't able to cover in your time here today. Sure, I just would like to invite any new authors to reach out to me, even if it's just for a conversation. mean, of course, I'm a businesswoman, I am looking for some new clients, but in addition to that, I'm a fellow writer, I'm part of the community, and I'm an experienced writer, and if you have any questions, comments, or concerns, I'm more than happy to have a conversation, and there doesn't need to be a dollar sign at the end of it. So that's the first thing. And secondly, if you are interested in my fiction, I have a completely separate website for that. and that's under my name, marylinclogacy .com. I do write a monthly sub stack newsletter. So if you went to marylinclogacy .com, and I believe we can get the spelling out to people in some way, then you can sign up for my sub stack and you'll hear from me once a month. I don't pepper people's inboxes, but I'm certainly happy to share what I'm working on and what I'm learning. It's kind of personal reflection work, but also keeping my people. informed as to the progress because I do expect my debut to be coming out soon. I've been withholding on publishing until I had the second one finished to decide where I wanted to go with it and I have great expectations for what will happen in the near future. Yeah, I have great expectation or great hope for you too and I think you're going to achieve wild success. Your websites are going to be listed from our guest resource page. Just go to pwbass .com, click radio podcast, then click guest resources and you'll be able to see Mary Lynn listed there. Her websites including leadershipliteralab .com and marylinclawgettsy .com will be listed there for along with her bio and some other information like LinkedIn profiles and things like that. Mary Lynn, thank you again. It's been very informative and inspiring. I, you know, personally, I think some of the best shows, I almost feel guilty because some of the shows that I love the best are the ones that I get the most out of. So maybe that's just a perk of being the host of the show, but I really got a lot out of this one. So thank you so really appreciate being invited as a guest and I wish you all the success in your new book and your podcast and with all the changes and evolutions that are coming. And just thank you for this opportunity. guys. Thanks so much for listening. Check back with us Monday for our next show. Until then, hope you have a wonderful weekend. Take care. Thanks for listening to the Patrick Bass show. The Patrick Bass show is copyright 2024. All rights reserved. Patrick's passion is to open up any and all conversations because in this day and age, the snowflakes are scared to get real. We'll fly that flag till the very end that we can promise you. Keep updated by liking our Facebook page at RealPatrickBass. For more information, visit us on the web at www .pwbass .com. Thanks for listening and tune in next time for more Real Talk on the Patrick Bass